Abhay Singh
Hello everyone and welcome to the next episode of how do they do a chat with talent leaders. Today I do have a topic that has been a peculiar one for me throughout my career. It is almost everywhere that you go even if you're like a three person startup with one engineers and two founders to a fortune 500 but somehow it doesn't really come up in a lot of other talent processes we work upon and ever since I think first day I stepped into a workplace I have.

I've always been thinking about it and I think one area I have least answers and more questions on and with me to demystify organization values is Lisa Wetter.

Lisa is a culture and learning lead at Mentimeter based out of Stockholm, Sweden. If you're not heard of Mentimeter, I do recommend you check it out. I think I've been using it close to about seven to eight years. Meetings, town halls, leadership sessions, trainings and whatnot, completely game changer. I was a consultant before and it really helped us double charge a lot of sessions we did for our clients. Now Lisa has worked across a lot of people, processes and work streams at Mentimeter and a few months back picked up the title of culture and learning lead.

which you want to learn more about, please. But first of all, welcome to the show and thank you for joining us.

Lisa Wetter
Cool, thank you. It's a definite pleasure to join.

Abhay Singh
So right off the bat, I'll touch on this. What does culture and learning lead mean at Minted? Mintimeter.

Lisa Wetter
Yeah, right, like a whole lot of everything and a whole lot of nothing, the way it sounds. So I mean, from Mentimeter, of course, like we strongly believe in learning development. There's a lot of aspects like within our product that has to do a lot with learning. So it's like within our culture naturally. And I think we didn't really want to just have like an L and D function. We wanted to have a function that is underpinned by learning, but really encompasses a lot and so much about our culture and how we see things stems from our core values.

So that's where kind of my function leads in. We have like some traditional or aspects of L &D and how we roll that out, but we also have wellbeing, diversity, inclusion, and belonging, our impactful events, employer branding, and then also just understanding how our culture really encompasses all of that. And that's also with like driving like how we see and use our core values.

Abhay Singh
Culture is the second on my list apart from values, which I find mentioned everywhere, but it's, I think, harder to see it in real life in terms of how it really manifests itself. First thing I think most guests we like to ask is that one aspect of your life that people would not find on social media that you'd like to share with us.

Lisa Wetter
I found this question so hard but then I was at the same time like this must be so easy because I don't post anything on social media so that shouldn't be too difficult.

Abhay Singh
I can give you some examples. So I've had guests who have told us that even though they were in the US, they actually grew up in South Africa. Then we had a HR leader who said she was with a band in her younger days and used to travel with the band throughout. So we've got some wacky ones on this one.

Lisa Wetter
Mmm.

I was gonna say, I'm just like not that interesting. I have a dog. I mean, you can see on my private social media that I've done like mushroom hunting, which is like a very like popular thing in Sweden in the fall. And I would say that's, that would probably be like on face value. If you met me, you wouldn't, you wouldn't guess that's how I spend like three, four hours on a Saturday is hunting mushrooms. So that's, that's one thing. Swedish culture has converted me, this Southern California girl into a,

a mushroom -hunting addict.

Abhay Singh
Tell me a bit more about it. So you like go into the forest and you're searching for some specific varieties. How does that work? What happened?

Lisa Wetter
Yeah, so like in the summer, the thing that's most popular is like they call it the summer chanterelle and it's like this very golden, beautiful yellow mushroom. And in some areas, it's super easy to find and in others like around Stockholm, it can be a little bit difficult. So that's a little bit of the fun is that that this isn't like a just like, plethora of mushrooms, like you really have to dig, you have to really get into the soil, you can get really weird with it and be like, get your hands in the ground and sort of like,

feel where the mushrooms could be. You get into the sense of it smelling like mushrooms. So it's this very polar opposite to my day -to -day life of just getting down and very earthy and just listening to nature. And I think that's why I really, really enjoy it in the fall, because it's just this nice break from regular life.

Abhay Singh
Yeah, now that sounds interesting. That's definitely something I'd like to try one day. With that, we'll break into a topic today. And maybe I keep it very basic and maybe it's a schoolboy question and perhaps most of my audience wouldn't like it, but what are values and why are they important? The reason I also ask is because I remember when I was early on and you're a couple of years in your first job and you and we were consulting multiple organizations on the talent programs.

So we were used to values and we had designed it for a couple of organizations and suddenly I go in and then one company had leadership principles and said, because Bezos said it and we have leadership principles. And then I saw a bunch of fancier words, core tenets and underlying systems and so forth. So can you break it down for us?

Lisa Wetter
Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it's like the same like dark pit that is like skills and competencies lives in like what's really a skill? What's really a competency? What's really a behavior? I feel like values definitely lives in that sort of like strange definition of like what is a principle? What is what is a value? And I would say even Mentimeter also has a little bit wrong on a technical aspect. Like principles are never changing and values are things that can change with time.

But I think the core of it is like, what do you believe in? What are the things you think are really shaping and building your culture? So whether you call that a principle or whether you call that a value, I think it's where it stems from. And I think it's also so important, like we have in these organizations of like, here's our values, this is what you should believe and you want to work here, this is fantastic, this is great. But a lot of people don't even know what a value is on their own personal level.

And I think that it's not a schoolboy question. I think it's actually something that's obvious that nobody really says. Like, what is this really? And what does it mean to me personally and in my life? Like, what is this sort of like understanding definition wise of this word value? So it tracks.

Abhay Singh
No, interesting because you mentioned personal values, because that is the closest concept I could ever relate to that. Who do I stand as a person? As you rightly said, who I stand as a person changes more frequently than it should. But for example, because I see it in early stage organizations, even if you're like a Y Combinator company, as I said, three people, five people, you might not even have a website up, a homepage up, but you have your values up and running.

Lisa Wetter
Mmm.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Abhay Singh
Is it because it just because as an organization, people or leaders or founders are trying to define who they are from an early stage is why it happens and how do you see it evolving as a company grows? Because company is the entity.

Lisa Wetter
Yeah, I definitely think you're spot on. Like it has a lot to do with like setting a direction and belief, especially when you're really early startup. It's like, well, we're trying a lot of things. We're trying to figure out like our go -to market. Like what is our product? And that probably will evolve quite a lot throughout time. And I think the thing that you need is some sort of level of certainty within that. Like what do we believe in? How does it guide us in the ways of our working? How does it guide us in like actually building the product?

I think that's a really interesting divergence sometimes that happens with core values. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, is how much do you stick to it on being internal ways of working and how do we believe our behavior should be versus how do these core values actually design for what we want to build? It can be both. Sometimes they lean a little bit more left, a little bit more to the right, but I think...

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Lisa Wetter
Why you see it so early is because they bring clarity in probably times of when you are really uncertain on what you're delivering.

Abhay Singh
I think one of my pet peeve around this was that obviously the first day you walk into an office, maybe at the reception area or somewhere you would see a chart of values there. I said, okay, this is what this organization values. And even during hiring people have asked me questions on this and I must act in a way that lives up to this values. Then suddenly three months in and then my manager throws up that this is the competency. I was like, okay.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Abhay Singh
this seems like a different framework as to which I'm supposed to believe. And then three months into it, then, you know, CEO announces that these are our cultural tenants. And now I have these fancy objectives from three different frameworks that HR perhaps can box very neatly. But...

Lisa Wetter
Hmm.

Abhay Singh
How do employees make sense of these values or these are cultural parts and then these are behavior competency? You talked about skills, which I'm not even going into because I think we can park that. But how do people make sense of it? And how can talent leaders simplify this for the organization? Because the average person, perhaps, is not as deep an expert as probably most talent professionals are.

Lisa Wetter
You

No, I think you're so again, so spot on on like how complex it can get in terms of the definition of your culture and what you believe in. And I mean, it's attributed Mark Twain, but I'm not sure if it's true. But like that saying, like, I would have written you a short letter, but I didn't have time. It's so easy to add, add, add, add, add, instead of simplifying the system and what you believe in. And I would say we're very much stuck there as

as well right now and kind of being more mature in terms of how we see performance management and like skill sets and all sudden we're like, we're adding yet another framework, yet another whole set of like tenants and principles. And it's just sort of being able to like go slow in order to go fast is kind of the element of like where you don't see that happen a lot. Where it's like, actually, we have these core, these core values, this core system.

But to make something systematized isn't always easy. Like I think that's something we're realizing right now with our core values is some of them are values, some of them are behaviors, some of them are skills. They're not necessarily all living on the same plane. And in order to create an organized system out of that, it actually takes some time to figure that out. So I think that's where you're landing an organization if you see a lot of different things.

is because you probably had to build a lot of stuff. It makes sense, we're changing, we're maturing, let's add this new thing. But I think the thing is, where do you see in your organization where it comes most naturally? Are you actually using your core values and context? For us, working smart is a core value. Is this really a working smart way? People use it as part of their natural language, and I think those are the systems that you default on, not the ones where like,

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Lisa Wetter
I think it's in slide deck 84, page 952. So that's where I kind of feel like from an employee's perspective is like, where do you kind of navigate and draw the line?

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

I think one aspect I noticed, especially in bigger organizations, is that nobody really wants to rock the boat. So obviously values are articulated at some point. Maybe the founding chairman or CEO loves it, is not willing to change and you have to go through, you know, hoops and holes to just sort of get it over the line. And maybe a leadership team was formed and they said, we can't really use this. So we're going to come up with our own framework. And somewhere along the line, a new team was set up, maybe a culture, people experienced this and know we're going to come up with our own words. And then it's a huge assortment.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Abhay Singh
of these different frameworks that go in. But as I said, I don't think there's the right answers. Technically, if you go on and there is no World Talent Management Institute that can say that, no, you don't need these three different set of English words, and maybe you can consolidate and make it easier for people to do it. But I do think, for example, the way that you mentioned, I think there are enough talent teams who do simplify this for the end user, because at the end of the day, that is what that matters. But yeah.

Lisa Wetter
Hmm.

Hmm.

Abhay Singh
I'm curious to see one good example someday who has done this well. I do want to get into the real reason that I actually came across your work. You'd written a piece along with one of your colleagues around because you worked on values a lot at Mentimeter across a lot of talent processes. But first things first, how do I go about creating?

values from start or scratch or maybe revisiting them. Maybe the founders or the CEOs at some point did it. Today, maybe I'm a 5 ,000 employee company. Maybe I'm 30 ,000 employee company and I need to transform. My share price is not growing and there's a huge transformation happening. What all resources, processes can talent leaders refer to? Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Lisa Wetter
Hmm.

Mmm.

I mean, it really varies. Like some like it comes really naturally, like you're quite a cohesive group, especially if you're like an early stage like company. It's more about like, what do you believe in? And it's coming together. Obviously, something brought you together in terms of the company in terms of what you wanted to build, where you want to achieve in the world. And then you kind of break it down on like, how do we get there? Like, what are the things that really do we feel our core into?

moving forward. There's like various ways to do this. I've seen a lot of design thinking methods of sort of like using the double diamond of going really big and then coming back down and 10 ,000 post -its. And like we're definitely in the period of like, I don't know, I don't want to say necessarily it's a refresh, but it is sort of like a relook on like what elements of this are clear, like what elements of this are confusing.

and taking into like how, again, like what you're speaking about, like simplifying and making sure that the system is really pushing us to where we wanna go, especially when you need to look at like, what are your core values really doing? Are they being used in like in a weaponized way? I've definitely seen that happen before. Are they being used actually to guide people to do better work or do they just feel like more constraints based upon how you've currently defined them?

And I know some companies do it every year. Like we haven't done that. But I really like, I think the CEO of Hinge, like he really talks about how so important that is. And I think it's so, so important though, like whoever's leading your company is a big part of that journey. So it isn't, so we're really lucky that we both have our founders, a part of our organization and really believe in culture. So they really want to be a part of this work and understand its evolution versus it being like, skirt off.

PNC, you go take care of it because you own culture, right? And it's like, no, culture is really exemplified from everyone that is in the culture. So that is like one way we kind of go about it is just sort of, it's, I think you don't need to make it complex. It just really is coming down to the core of like, what are the things that we really admire or believe in or think that actually would make us push it to the next level?

Abhay Singh
I've just been stuck on the fact when you said values can be used as a weapon. I need to know this.

Lisa Wetter
It's crazy, right? Like, it's so funny how like, and this is the thing that gets like really scary sometimes of or complex about using values as like a part of your performance system on how people behave, because those are not as like quantitative as like, okay, here's your sales quota, but telling someone to have to behave in a certain way and then how you evaluate that in a like,

like in a quality way is really hard. So then it becomes, it can become weaponized in that way where people get really defensive or they blame others for not living values in a certain way. If it's not clear, yeah, values is such a like, it's a trippy area. Like it can get really crazy.

Abhay Singh
Yeah, another one of my pet peeve was where, you know, you mentioned that some CEOs or founders might consider that, you know, culture is your responsibility. That way performance is also a responsibility. Leadership is our, the point is that PNC teams are facilitators. At the end of the day, all of this is the business responsibility. Sometimes it's people and culture is construed as like a third entity in a company, right? That exists as a silo in itself. I'm also an employee. I just work in the people team.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Yeah, 100%.

Abhay Singh
You mentioned one more part, right, where the founders and early stage companies or CEO getting involved. And even most sessions I have been a part of, it remains very top heavy, right? You put your top cream, 12, 15, 30, 50, depending on how huge a company that is. But essentially when you go beyond a point, you're no longer just your founders or leaders, right? Your collective identity of an organization, culture or values is actually how things are actually happening. How...

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Abhay Singh
decisions are taken, what behaviors are encouraged and so forth. So right now when you're going through this process, are you involving the larger employees that have one of the day think?

Lisa Wetter
Yes, I mean, of course, we start with leaders at first because they're the ones that are sort of like advocating and like role modding the culture that we want to see and like teaching others. For us, it's the most important to capture new people on this to be like, hey, you haven't been indoctrinated into this yet. So what is your thoughts? And especially at the stage company that we're at, we're leaning a little bit more towards like experienced people from.

Abhay Singh
Thank you.

Lisa Wetter
other startups to be like, okay, you've been at other places. Like how has this looked from operational level, but also just from a cultural level? Like, can you give us feedback on how you see this as being interpreted? And that's always been so enlightening for us when we bring in people into that conversation. Like I think really great point, don't just stick it with the people who had created from the start because there's...

There's this tendency, I'm not necessarily saying this is what's happening with our founders, but this is a tendency of, it's called threat rigidity. When you feel something is threatened, you tend to stick even harder to it. So I think that's why it's really important, just like as you're highlighting, that it doesn't stick within just sort of this top heavy layer, but that you're also introducing people who are not as like adopted into the system yet.

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Yeah.

That's super interesting that I didn't think of it that way that newer people who are approaching your organization, what do they think? Because sometimes, as you said, because you have been in motion through and throughout, you kind of get set in your own ways and you don't like it to be challenged and so forth. So that's a fresh perspective on that. Another one of my, I think I'm using the word pet peeve quite freely, but.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Abhay Singh
I've been a few of these workshops, you know, get it done across few countries, getting the values set up.

What has always surprised me is that how do you even bring out a sense of uniqueness, right? Can values really be that unique? So for example, back when we were younger, Amazon was the name of the game because tremendous growth and every CEO was like, you know, we need to follow these and these 14 leadership principles and Jeff Bezos, I think we wake up in the morning and give three podcasts or interviews and talk about customer obsession. And then everyone wanted to be customer obsession. And in my young mind, the question was, is there any company that doesn't want to be customer obsessed?

Or they would talk about integrity. And again, is there any company that says integrity is not a value and meritocracy is not a value or transparency is not a value? And that's what some frameworks also come up, right? That a lot of consultants or even in your blog, you mentioned this typically like a laundry list and you spoke about the post -it. So you just put people in a room and they're just voting and whoever gets whichever value gets the most vote. Okay, now this is our value.

Lisa Wetter
Hmm.

Mmm.

Hmm.

Abhay Singh
How do I bring out a sense what's unique about me? Because if I'm creating something or I stand as an independent entity, have you sort of encountered this? Because I haven't really someone think about what makes us unique. It's always the same words and a different combination pops up in different companies.

Lisa Wetter
Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm. I think that's actually a really interesting question. And I think it comes with time as well. Like, I think to think that your core values are perfect from the get -go is pretty naive. I think it has to do a lot with seeping in context as well as as you go along. I mean, of course, you don't want your core values to be a single word that isn't supplemented by some sort of definition.

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Lisa Wetter
that kind of understands like what does it mean? So transparency, for instance, like what does that actually mean in your context? Does that mean we share everything? Does that mean like what are the nuances here? I think that's where it's really where you can add that uniqueness. And I also have seen like others like go beyond like, like, like work hard, play hard or like whatever they they try to make it a bit funnier or like, like we get shit done. Like I've seen that several times. So like,

I think that's how, that's like a small way, even though that can feel a little generic and other companies use that. But I think that's a small way of like putting a bit of spin on it. Like what is your tone of voice and what is your sort of like humor do you want to put? That's one way to put the uniqueness, but where I find a uniqueness usually lives is in where more of that sort of like subtext. Like what are, were you adding to this definition to kind of like flesh out?

what does it mean in your organization? And I think that's so important to actually keep in mind for those who are developing or evolving their core values to remember, how do I know I don't work at Amazon looking at this list? How do I know I work at Mentimeter? And yeah, I definitely think there's a lot of things I also have to do with culturally, where's your company started? That's something that...

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Lisa Wetter
I've noticed about our values, like they're so Scandinavian, like in a really positive way, but it's like, I didn't really notice it until we started expanding to North America. And it was like, wow, actually this has a lot to do with being in Sweden.

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Hmm. That's fair, right? Because a natural extension, even organization or even personal values and extension of who you are, where you brought up. So that stands true for organizations as well. And now I have sort of newfound appreciation for my people team because the values they put out, they give us examples of what they actually mean. So I think your sense suggestion is already getting implemented in some places.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Abhay Singh
Now, it is the most cliched question and perhaps the oldest low -hanging joke on values. Everyone makes fun of the words on the lunch wall. And I perhaps have heard it more times than I would have liked over the course of my career. How do we make it work? How do we actually ensure that values are not just some words on a wall or your career websites, but...

Lisa Wetter
Mmm.

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Abhay Singh
I guess people are living them? That's the right verb? How do you ensure that?

Lisa Wetter
I mean, also another cliche, you make sure that it's a part of onboarding. Like you make sure it's like a beginning part on actually how do you work with this. So for us at Mentimeter, like we actually have a session that is ran by our CEO. Like he cares about this. I mean, he's also a founder, but he cares about this so deeply that it's required of every leader that has a new hire to be in the session with the CEO.

on learning what are the core values, what are they, what are they not? Which I think is really great to start that sort of important message of we believe in this so much that our CEO actually has time to devote to this. It's important from that layer. But then another thing that we add that I think is equally important that most organizations miss is learning what values are to you. So it's quite...

I think there's a high assumption, like how we started this conversation, like what are values, that people actually know what they are, they know what they mean to them, like how does it determine certain parts of like decisions or pathways that you would take. So we actually have a session that is exploration of your personal values. So you can understand like, where am I in my life right now? What do I think is really important?

and then pair them with the Mentimeter values. And it's not to be like, hey, look everyone, they're magically the same. It's not that type of session, but it's more about like, I actually have certain beliefs that are like in line with this. And actually maybe there are some beliefs that challenge this and maybe I will have some problems or maybe this is an area that I need to investigate and understand better. So I think it's not more about like, you're now indoctrinated and you believe everything we say. It's more of like,

Okay, who am I as a person and how do I relate to this and how do I work with this? So I think that already starts the journey of realizing that values are something to work with. They're something for you to understand. You will see them quite a lot. There's quite a big belief in them, but it's really important that you understand them from your own experience.

Abhay Singh
That's super fascinating because I don't have another example where a CEO typically leads a value onboarding session. And sometimes we are still hierarchical in our brains, right? Even if we work in flat structures that if some word comes from the top strata, then we take it that much more seriously.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Abhay Singh
Once the sort of onboarding is done, I'm now chasing my KPIs, I'm now down to regular work and unless some assessment or something happens by the people team.

How do you make it work on a daily weekly basis? Do these conversations come up that some person lived this value? Do you see appreciation being called out? Do you have some like a formal praise channel or something? How do you sort of regularly ensure that people are actually living these values and people who actually demonstrate these values, they get recognition of some sort.

Lisa Wetter
Yeah, I mean, definitely we have like that standard praise channel where it's like super important to acknowledge kind of like what core value do you tag with this? It's not a mandatory thing, but people tend to do it on a like a natural way. And also, I mean, from like an operational level, it is embedded in our like performance reviews and development cycles, a professional development framework.

Abhay Singh
Hmm.

Lisa Wetter
has all the core values in there for every single level that we have and what it means to demonstrate it at that level. But I think in general, we work quite a lot with teams and team dynamics, and it's like associating like your ways of working through the core values. So I know when I started our people experience team, it was, okay, one of our core values is be humble, which has a, it can be interpreted in many different ways, but it has a lot to do with like curiosity and like,

understanding others and it's like, okay, I run a team that does a lot of events. I run a team that does a lot of like surprises and fun things, but what does be humble mean for us and our team when we're designing something? Like what kind of context does that bring? So from like a leadership layer, it's like really important that you run your team and understanding via these core values, not in a mandatory way, but that's how you make them live. And then all of a sudden, when you start doing that as leader, you'll see others.

really start to live it on their own and be like, well, I decided to do this in an 80 -20 work smart way. And it's like, okay, so it, I think it's just like you, you don't need to overdo it, but you need to make it natural and not forget about it.

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Yeah, I love the power of reinforcement and I think people in culture can't really set up guidelines for everything right. Like we can't go in and control how you operate for seven, eight hours a month a day. But these small little aspects help. In fact, as you were talking, I suddenly remembered that when you spoke about be humble that sometimes even with due care, there is miss.

interpretation of values that happen and I remember that we had this value called love the the objective was that you put customers first your teammates second and then you think about yourself but often the often the people thought that it just meant being nice to people and they'll be like he was really nice to me or you know he's always helpful and we had to go around and reset the expectations on that one so you spoke about your CEO which is fascinating but of course

CEOs cannot be everywhere at all points and a lot come down to leaders and managers. How do you work with your leaders, right? And rolling out values and ensuring that they're withholding the standards that these values call from everyone. What has worked for you in the past?

Lisa Wetter
Mmm.

I mean, we have like leadership program, that's like one where we definitely tie in the core values as a big part of it. And then also just understanding from like a level of like the type of behaviors we would like to see. But I would say in general, like we don't, it's not like we really treat it super differently. We don't say like, I mean, yes, like leaders drive a lot of more of that role modeling, but it isn't.

only leader session regarding core values, we kind of treat it as a whole and just realizing your responsibility as a leader and expectation is one that you are driving more of this conversation. So we don't necessarily set up like really too exclusively different training for them. It's kind of training for everybody.

Abhay Singh
interesting. And when sort of you're discussing things like, you know, succession that who becomes the next director, or, you know, even just promotions, or which leaders are

Lisa Wetter
Hmm.

Abhay Singh
good ideals sort of internally in terms of living this value. Do values pop up? Of course, business performance pops up, right? Who has killed it in their functional codes and so forth. But I'm sure you sit through a lot of these other meetings as well. You're at that scale where you would be talking about leadership development, you know, which maybe who is our next CFO and do we have a bench strength of leaders? How do values pop up in those conversations?

Lisa Wetter
Mm -mm. Mm.

Mmm.

Hmm.

I mean, I think they're just in, they're like laced in. Like it's not something that is like cool performance and then it's core values. It's like, actually, how do you get to the what via the how and how is that really a part of like the evaluation? But also for us, like the thing that's so important in our onboarding is that we actually have a culture interview where we talk a lot about our core values in terms of like, this is what they are. Like, what is your experience? We have certain like,

Abhay Singh
Hmm.

Lisa Wetter
questions are oriented to per core value. And then in Sweden, we have a pretty intensive like probation period, it's six months. And during that period, it's really, that's really important for us to understand like how leaders are working with the core values and how that evaluation. So I would say the people who have successfully made it through like promotions or like getting into those director levels.

they've already had so many layers before that, that conversation. So it's not necessarily like it happens like every single succession conversation. It's like a continuous evaluation. I don't want to say evaluation because that makes it sound like much more than it is. But I would say this continuous conversation on really how core values are being lived via that leader versus just this like one succession conversation.

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Yeah, I think the only part I'll add to that something that I've seen in a few organizations is that a lot of alignment with values, if someone is aligned to values and regularly demonstrates those behaviors, it is laced into these conversations as you said. But if there is a leader that does not,

Lisa Wetter
Mmm.

Ehh

Abhay Singh
align with a particular value, right? For example, the Terrible A -holes conversations that if you have a value around behavior, that definitely comes up. And that I've always been surprised by because we would sit through these succession plan meetings or talent review meetings as consultants or even with Mesh at that point. But I think what leaders realize or should realize is that if they do not align with the particular organization value and their behaviors are not in line with what they're

Lisa Wetter
Ehh...

That definitely becomes a...

Hmm.

Mm.

Abhay Singh
that value entails that can work against their careers because that is because as leadership organizations want this group to be the custodian, like everyone should showcase those values. But you presented an interesting segue into my next question because I wanted to now get to how values integrate with the real work that we have to get done as PNC teams, what we get paid for. And starting off, of course, with hiring, right? You mentioned about a culture fit.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Mm.

Mmm.

Abhay Singh
How do you make that happen? I've found a lot of behavioral in event interviewing, even when I've interviewed for jobs and you would always go onto the careers page because at some point you know that you'll be meeting with the CHRO at one of your final rounds. How do you ensure that people that are coming into Mentimeter are aligned, their personal values or their previous experience aligns to what your values are? And are you always looking for a perfect fit? Because I'm curious about that as well.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

button.

Yeah, I mean, always this like fit versus ad conversation, right, is so, so interesting to me because it's not always obvious, like when different is an ad or different is not an alignment. Like that I think is always difficult to be able to see. I think one thing that I like, not all everyone does this, but during our culture interview is to actually ask people the one that they don't like.

the one that doesn't align with them because then that also has like a bit of a, okay, so how were you thinking? Or like, I know for myself, I actually just told them, they didn't even ask me, I just told them which one I didn't like. But then that, cause then that like makes you aware that you're thinking about this. I think that's also where you get a bit of a trouble if you're like, check, check, check, check. Like this is like all aligned because it's never really always a hundred percent that true.

There's always something, I mean, you didn't make these core values. Like we don't know who you are. This wasn't necessarily adapted for you. There may be so many things that fall in line, but there's gotta be something that doesn't. And then why is that? And like, what's a little itchy for you? What's a little tension? So I think that's an interesting pathway instead of going from always like, what is a lying to be like, like what about this like?

may be a bit interesting for you or you wouldn't have phrased it that way. I think that's an interesting way to also go about it from an interview perspective.

Abhay Singh
I want to check out the many meter values after this and send you a note on which one I disagree with But is there anyone that comes up let me put it on the spot anyone that comes up frequently that talent says I do not agree with

Lisa Wetter
Yeah, yeah, yeah, please do.

No, I mean, like, I think sometimes people get confused, like, with have fun. It's like, like, are you forcing fun in this organization? And like, what does that really mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I don't I don't know if that's like, from a statistical standpoint, if that one comes up a lot, but I've heard that a couple of times. I think it depends on the markets. I think be humble is a really interesting one, like, because from an American North American context, like,

Abhay Singh
Hmm.

There are no goals, you'll just pay me.

me.

Lisa Wetter
Humility means something a little bit different than it does in a Swedish context. I didn't like consultant mindset at first, just because it means something totally else. It means like, be responsible, deliver on the things that you say. It has a lot to do with being a really great professional. But I was like, ooh, but could it mean like you just come in and out and you deliver a certain job and it's only based on a project? Like you don't really...

You're a consultant, you're not seen as a part of the organization. Could it be interpreted that way? Which I thought was interesting and they're like, no, we have not thought about it that way. So I think that's why it's important to have those conversations to understand what are you really interpreting? Because they only have a sentence below them to describe them. They're not in the context of the organization yet.

Abhay Singh
That's so true. At the end of the day, these words of English and this cultural and regional context and so much and anyone can, as you were speaking those words, I could think of like two, three related yet different meanings in that context. And what I see, for example, consultant mindset, I'll always think, okay, not accountable for results. I'm just, you know, perhaps just give some good advice and off I roll. And I...

Lisa Wetter
Mmm.

Hmm?

I'm just thinking of it not a concert, you know? So I'm just gonna go to France, give some good advice and offer a room.

Abhay Singh
I'm very interested about the work that employer branding, employee branding teams do. Okay, today is not the right time because it's an employer's market these days. But when we are competing for talent, do you see sort of people get attracted? And I know people say that, you know, I love your values. I love a company that stands for these things. Do you find some semblance of truth in that, that you've had people?

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Abhay Singh
who could have really gone anywhere but chose to join you because they like the way you operate, represented by your values.

Lisa Wetter
I definitely think so. I have definitely met more people who... And this is kind of actually the flip side that's not so great is that they're like, I don't care what I do at your company. I just love what you represent and the values. The values so aligned to who I am. And like...

Abhay Singh
Mm.

Lisa Wetter
Sometimes I think that's super beautiful. I think that's really great that you're connected and find a company that really like embraces what you believe. But at the same time, I'm like, but it's so seeped in context. Like you haven't worked here yet. Like you don't know 100 % yet. And I know it's a good indicator of whether you would want to work here or not. But I also find it an interesting take that like it doesn't like, cause I mean, I think there's a part of like inner motivation and career that you need to connect to as well.

Abhay Singh
Yeah.

Lisa Wetter
And values will take you very far, but they won't be the only thing that will sustain a good working environment for you. So it is really funny that you bring that up, because I have had that happen many times, where it's just like, this is 100 % me. I don't care what I do here. I just want to be there.

Abhay Singh
Yeah, as an employee, I've definitely been attracted because when I see words like meritocracy, wow, I'm going to go real fast here or transparency or there's going to be a lot of chance to challenge, you know, authority and so forth. Whenever I go into these conversations, I do like a sense check. I ask them, OK, how does this actually happen?

Lisa Wetter
Mmm.

Hmm.

Abhay Singh
This is a point where I think I'm going to jump into the onboarding phase. I think you've spoken about it a lot. I'm going to append your blog as well to the show notes about where you spoke about how you embedded values in the onboarding workflows.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Abhay Singh
What is this, and I don't want to get into that, I think you've already spoken about that a lot, but what is when the employer new joiner feedback on that? What results have you seen as a result of this value embedded onboarding process on your talent experience?

Lisa Wetter
I mean, I would say they know what they are. It's definitely like a good result out of them. I think they understand like how important and how seriously we take them. And like in terms of it being an indicator of like certain performance or anything like that, we don't have that sort of analysis on like how much it delivers from that standpoint. But I just know that our satisfaction with our onboarding is quite high, but I think it's because it has that bit of that red thread that ties through.

Abhay Singh
Hmm.

Lisa Wetter
of like, okay, cool, you have all these like marketing sessions, product sessions and all this stuff, but to hear those words of our core values like introduced to you, but then they're then very naturally used during those sessions. I think it makes it much easier to be like, aha, okay, like you talk about them, but you actually like live them in your discussions. And I and we even talk about like, what are the behaviors that you see, so we bring in other people to have that discussion.

that same session with our CEO, like having the leaders on being like, okay, but you have lived, you have worked in this organization now, like what is your interpretation and how are you seeing, how are you living every day?

Abhay Singh
Yeah. After onboarding is where it gets most hazy for me that all right now these words have been spoken about a lot when it hits the brass stacks, performance reviews, my one -on -ones, what my compensation would be, bonus, my development program, promotion. How and where do you use values today most effectively across the rest of the talent processes?

Lisa Wetter
Hmm, effectively is a good key point there. I don't know about effectively. I mean, I mean, because we don't have any sort of like quantitative measure on it. We are really trying to incorporate it within like our professional development framework and like career development, performance reviews. I think it's, it's hard as you get bigger, because like the type of company you are and those definitions like evolve.

Abhay Singh
Hmm.

Lisa Wetter
So to feel like it's a static system can be really difficult. So like designing for that, and I would say that's the challenge we're in right now is like we're refreshing those things because like I think the last time they might've been refreshed is when we were like half the size of the company. And our challenges and what we decide to focus on, the type of talent we bring in is actually very different than we were half the amount ago. So I think.

I think that's, I'm more in the state of like, we're figuring it out than it is to be like, hey, we got it. You should follow our formula. Like we're more on that level of understanding, but it is really important for us that they're seen throughout your journey. That it's not just like, hey, onboarding, you're indoctrinated, cool, you get it. It's like, actually, how is this incorporated into a system of mind growth and development as well?

Abhay Singh
Interesting. You spoke about quantifying, right? And...

sort of people function has been moving towards a more data -driven sort of as a culture, you know, catching up with its peers. I wouldn't say we are behind, but I think the more we quantify our work, the more value it creates. And I think other leaders and people recognize it. When it comes to values, even if you don't do it today, do you think there is any data or metric that we can look at over a period of time to see that if you're moving in the right direction?

Lisa Wetter
Mmm.

Hmm.

I mean, we do have it in our engagement survey. So we have all four, all five core values plus like the subsequent things that we think attribute to the to those core values. So we do actually measure it. It's just more of like, how do you benchmark it externally is very difficult, because each organization does a little bit different. And I would say even for the people in culture field.

Abhay Singh
Hmm.

Lisa Wetter
working within like EMPS is not great either. So internally, we actually do measure them to have more of like a quantifiable way to like look at our core values. But from a like external perspective, it's difficult.

Abhay Singh
Yeah, so there's a wacky concept that we came up on match. It's not operationalized. And I think the primary challenge is that we just, I think companies overly values and competencies so much that it's very difficult to separate these out when a lot of these processes are running. For example, if you have competencies, they're feeding into your performance reviews, most likely they feed into your development plans. They fit into your promotion or career framework as well. And then.

Lisa Wetter
Mm. Mm.

Mmm.

Abhay Singh
where do values really go? But I think, for example, what we've been seeing that the sprays or continuous feedback, both good and bad, not just sprays, because then there is no one telling me if I have some areas of development. And we realize that if you have four, five, six values, not everyone's going to be a champion at everything. So, for example, I think fantasy sports does it really well, where if you have a player, they have like some sort of like a card, if it could be baseball, could be soccer, football in Europe.

Lisa Wetter
Mm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Mmm.

Abhay Singh
I'm talking about that sport. And then you have, you set up the strength meters, right? Then based on how frequently you get positive and development feedback from your peers, it's sort of like a peers on your profile. So for example, if I'm meritocracy or any value and I get like 20 points on that from my peers throughout the course of the year and I get three development points, I get a certain strength rating. So it gives every employer sort of a baseline of...

Lisa Wetter
Hmm.

Mmm.

Abhay Singh
At an organization level, so people teams get a dashboard of values and who are your champions, who are the people who score strongest on it. And I think that's the direction that we like to work towards. But yes, I think the biggest challenge is that I don't see a lot of companies that have separate, they almost use it.

They overlay these two frameworks with each other. It's almost confusing. Some call the same English words, values and competency. Then if they have them separately, they don't have a way to separate it. But I think I see them very separately because values are more general sort of behaviors that you act upon and then competencies are more.

role -related or aptitude related and so forth. But I think that's where it could potentially head, but that's something for the future. One last sort of aspect I want to touch about is of course technology and digital tools. Anything that has worked well for you around anything you do on values at Mentimeter that you'd like to share with the community.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think that was it from my end, Lisa. I think I've covered the gamut of questions that I had around values. Any parting tips from your end on anyone working on org values that I haven't touched on with my questions.

Fantastic. Thank you so much, Lisa, for your time. This was our podcast on making sense of organization values. If you have any ideas or suggestions for me on any processes that you'd like for us to cover, please leave them in the comment section. And until next time, toodles.